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 Tournament Attendance -discussion and gathering of ideas 
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Wargamer

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Post Tournament Attendance -discussion and gathering of ideas
I think most people can agree there has been a significant downfall in tournament attendance in the Irish WHFB scene. This is due to a few reasons:

In recessionary times people simply do not have the money to attend every event on the calendar so they go to the one that will offer them the best investment for their time. This then brings us into the comp pack debate that seems to rear its head every few months.

Some players who are involved with the ETC team exclusively play ETC style events. Others exclusively play OOTB Warhammer events, its all a matter of taste really, nobody is right or wrong. Berating a T.O however because of the rulespack his event is using is not acceptable and anyone that does it should be ashamed of themselves or get off the keyboard and organize their own events. I for example run ETC style events exclusively because its good practice and gives newer players to the scene a chance to experience ETC style gaming if they wish. I'd never dissuade them from attending an OOTB event though (personally I think ETC-hammer is a more tactically skilled game but this i just my opinion after playing both sides of the comp line)

So how do we boost attendance for events up and down the country? I don't know really to be honest, gamers are a fickle bunch and will literally take their toys and go home.

I know if OOTB events adopted ETC magic restrictions and upped the points value to 2,400pts there would be an extra 10-12 people attending those events using them as ETC practice. But the reverse is if I ran events as OOTB as possible (but then there's no pure ETC Comp events in Ireland at all!)

I don't think its a problem that can be fixed with the wave of a wand or a thread on a forum but maybe something to work towards.

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Wed Oct 22, 2014 3:32 pm
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Post Re: Tournament Attendance -discussion and gathering of ideas
Quite simple - I think there are too many tournaments run these days. Back when there were maybe 6-8 events a year, it was easy for anyone interested in tournaments to go to most of them. When there's 20+, nobody has the time to attend them all, it splits attendance, then you add in the "ETC is the best vs. ETC is rubbish" or "Out of the box is the only way to play Warhammer vs. Out of the box is boring, 6 dice Dwellers FTW" on top of that. While it is good that there are tournaments to suit everyone's taste, there's simply too many events to assure decent attendance at them all.

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Wed Oct 22, 2014 4:41 pm
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Post Re: Tournament Attendance -discussion and gathering of ideas
Dont have so many events so close ;)

Nordicon
Mickhammer
Gaelcon
winter war

All inside a 6 week or so period, way too much.

Less is more, used to be maybe 5-6 tournys in total each year, so even the smallest events had 20+ bloodstorm and battlecry both made the 40+ mark. With so many its hard getting the time of work/brownie points.

Over seas gaming its as cheap for us nordies to fly and stay in the UK as travel to some southern events and vice versa.

Other things to consider, the price of some is getting a bit out of hand £35 for a tourny does nothing to help generate interest in newer players.

Maybe try a £10-15 with only a few prizes see if you inspire newer players.
Add a new blood prize and/or a under 16 maybe. Worked well for us at early Bloodstorms.

Bring back the old Club leader boards, provides a bit more craic and will maybe inspire clubs to travel wasters stile (Brooklynn you still need a lift in the wagon?)

But i think the biggest problem is there is only X amount of gamers and with systems like bolt action/Fow/x-wing/warmahordes all appearing its split the gameing groups up alot.

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Wed Oct 22, 2014 4:48 pm
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Post Re: Tournament Attendance -discussion and gathering of ideas
I know it makes me a shameless painting whore, but I don't care admitting it. I've gone to the tournies where I knew there was a decent painting award. If it's ambiguous about the prize, or no prize at all, I've mostly just not gone. I only have one actual trophy to my name for my painting and I'd like more before my right eye completely shuts up shop.

So for me, if there was a good prize for painting, I'd be there every time giving it my best. To be honest, 60% of the reason I've been churning out new Beastmen stuff this month is because Mick has decent glass trophies. The other Nordie tournies that had awesome trophies fell at the end of Nov/start of Dec the past few years which is always out for me. That being said, and I've said this to Mick before, he does get a discount where he gets the trophies, and I couldn't get them for Victory!Hammer last year as they were too expensive to make any decent return for the charity. So yea, I know I'm saying glass trophies are awesome, but I do understand that they aren't feasible price wise for most tournies.

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Wed Oct 22, 2014 5:53 pm
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Post Re: Tournament Attendance -discussion and gathering of ideas
I wouldn't say there are to many events, but planning between TO's could be a lot better, 3 or 4 events within space of few weeks? What did you think would happen

As for comp, to me personally and for most others I don't think comp makes that much difference. To be honest changes in comp keep game fresh for me, whether it's straight out of box, etc, Swedish or scale. It's makes for more creative lists, if they were all etc hammer it would bore me to tears. Even the variation in soft scores makes it more interesting, prior to last NWG I was cursing Nigel for the amount of time I was spending painting but after I got it done I was loving it (even to extent of already planning for next years NWG).

As to price, you get what you pay for. When one of Barrys tourneys is run it costs a bit more, but everyone can see where the money goes to, great prize support, really well fed and snacks all weekend. What you sometimes see getting offered in other events is a bit of a joke when compared.

And finally from my own perspective if a tourney is going to hit 20 players I prosbably won't go, I don't have every weekend free with young family so if I'm going to wangle a weekend for you soldiers it needs to be big enough for max ranking points


Wed Oct 22, 2014 7:38 pm
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Northern Waster

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Post Re: Tournament Attendance -discussion and gathering of ideas
The growth of other game systems, whilst fantasy and 40k stayed stale is a factor.

But I agree that there is too many events.

5-6 years ago we have bloodstorm, battle cry both getting huge numbers, and then a few smaller events through the year.

Then we had war in the north, lisburn summer event, NWG, and an event in cork, plus smaller events.

Now there's about 10 events, tbh I can only make a couple each year, I'm sure most are the same, so it thins the numbers. Where were the cork/Limerick/dublin/galway guys at NWG this year for example.

Also the scene is aging. The same core 20 of us have been going for years. A few have joined the last few, but others have left.

I remember battlecrys and bloodstorm events that had 5-6 young guys at it each year.

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Wed Oct 22, 2014 8:59 pm
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Post Re: Tournament Attendance -discussion and gathering of ideas
Gojira wrote:
I know it makes me a shameless painting whore, but I don't care admitting it. I've gone to the tournies where I knew there was a decent painting award. If it's ambiguous about the prize, or no prize at all, I've mostly just not gone. I only have one actual trophy to my name for my painting and I'd like more before my right eye completely shuts up shop.

So for me, if there was a good prize for painting, I'd be there every time giving it my best.


should have come down to NWG Eoghan, great painting scores, nice glass prizes and of course Emerald Demon - right up your street I would think.

Ithryn wrote:

Also the scene is aging. The same core 20 of us have been going for years. A few have joined the last few, but others have left.

I remember battlecrys and bloodstorm events that had 5-6 young guys at it each year.


this is a big big problem - we are doing ZERO to attract young players - the focus on comp events IMO puts them off - especially if they are reading these forums!. My first tournament I , an adult, was a little overwhelmed, playing normal warhammer - i cant imagine what a 15 yr old might think when faced with some crapfest of tournament specific house rules when he has barely got to grips with the official rules.

I miss the big GW events and the Battlecrys back in the precomp heyday they would attract 50 odd players.


While i don't see the need for changing the rules at every other tournament I do agree that there are way too many events for the player base.

Could ranking be a reason for so many events? the race to be king of the toy soldier nerds is leading to more and more events? (certainly the introduction of ranking seems to have coincided with the spike in Tournament numbers?)


Wed Oct 22, 2014 9:46 pm
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Wargamer

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Post Re: Tournament Attendance -discussion and gathering of ideas
The current rankings being used is only to facilitate bragging rights, the masters and player of the year from this forum so I don't see how it can be a factor. ETC has a separate system for picking the team so that can't really be used as a scapegoat anymore for the lull in events.

As a matter of interest the only ETC comped events last year (to my knowledge) were ran by me and Malcolm on gamers world and we did 3 of them. Conversely the OOTB players get many many more events to attend this is nobodies fault its just the spread of events we have.

if you don't like ETC comp don't attend the event, if you don't like Swedish or Scale don't attend, if you don't like OOTB events don't attend its really as simple as that. The comp divide on a nation with a Warhammer scene on this scale is massive and people stubbornly refuse to even dip their toes on any pool but the one they like (this is absolutely fine by the way its their right as consumers) I attended an OOTB event last year, had three ok games but ultimately decided I would only attend events that offered my preferences. I rarely get to events with work so the ones I do I want to get what im looking for

The spread of events is probably too much but with the nerdrage over comp as strong as ever TOs are trying to cater to everyone's tastes and as a result you dilute the player pool and everybody suffers

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Wed Oct 22, 2014 10:01 pm
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Post Re: Tournament Attendance -discussion and gathering of ideas
emrys wrote:
Gojira wrote:
I know it makes me a shameless painting whore, but I don't care admitting it. I've gone to the tournies where I knew there was a decent painting award. If it's ambiguous about the prize, or no prize at all, I've mostly just not gone. I only have one actual trophy to my name for my painting and I'd like more before my right eye completely shuts up shop.

So for me, if there was a good prize for painting, I'd be there every time giving it my best.


should have come down to NWG Eoghan, great painting scores, nice glass prizes and of course Emerald Demon - right up your street I would think.


It wasn't up my street at all. As I said about prizes, there were no prizes for this mentioned, no prizes or when a tourney is ambiguous about what get's a prize, what the prizes could possibly be etc, I generally get turned off. So I either had to attend and guess or the other route. I don't like the idea of being the guy who asks, then its like "oh no prizes", "not going then" because reading between the lines is a second hobby for some people. This doesn't even include the problems that a late announcement have for me as I have very little extra cash each week to save for these things so I need to know in advance. Knowing it's on isn't a enough for me, I like to know the comp and some details too before to start scrimping and scrounging.

I don't think it's too much to ask a tournament be presented in a timely manner with a reasonably clear outlay of its expected spread, so to speak.

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Wed Oct 22, 2014 10:09 pm
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Post Re: Tournament Attendance -discussion and gathering of ideas
James wrote:
The current rankings being used is only to facilitate bragging rights, the masters and player of the year from this forum so I don't see how it can be a factor.


just bragging rights? didn't a number of people on here refuse to attend NWG because it wasn't ranked? I think some people take them much more seriously than they let on :lol:

Has anyone done a count on how many tournaments are held per annum on the island? must be around 20? probably too many for the existing player base.


Wed Oct 22, 2014 10:20 pm
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Post Re: Tournament Attendance -discussion and gathering of ideas
Quote:
I don't think it's too much to ask a tournament be presented in a timely manner with a reasonably clear outlay of its expected spread, so to speak.


Well, except when GW releases a game-shaking book 3 weeks before the event :)

But yeah, I understand your point of view, we wanted to allow players to use as much of their toys as they wanted, but we were squeezed between two dates doing so


Wed Oct 22, 2014 10:22 pm
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Post Re: Tournament Attendance -discussion and gathering of ideas
emrys wrote:
James wrote:
The current rankings being used is only to facilitate bragging rights, the masters and player of the year from this forum so I don't see how it can be a factor.


just bragging rights? didn't a number of people on here refuse to attend NWG because it wasn't ranked? I think some people take them much more seriously than they let on :lol:

Has anyone done a count on how many tournaments are held per annum on the island? must be around 20? probably too many for the existing player base.


It was me that asked if it was being ranked or not but i doubt that made any impact on anyone attending or not. I was more curious if they were going to maintain the rules set out on this site or not. The main reason i didnt go was i work weekends and like to perform resonably well at tourneys and between how late the comp pack was out and the fact that it was OOTB warhammer i wasn't interested in having to work a few 17 hour days to go. Not to mention the fact that the overalls scores looked like the last 5 minutes of a game of "super mario party 8" after the panting scores were added in. For the record i usually love heading down to NWG with me and my friend Jack. This year was the first one we missed.

If it was hard comp touneys that were the problem then events like gaelcon and other cons should be filling up with new players, as far as i know they arent. There are a lot of new tourneys set up the last few years which means people wanting value for money. I will happily hand Barry over 35 sterling for one of his tourneys and book accomodation for 2 nights and use up annual leave to make sure i can go...cos they are fantasticlly run and theres good odds i can get scoops in with Matt Hamill and maybe Shane :) on the other end of the spectrum theres events at cons, we all know the type, that charge 35 euro in and your feel ripped off. I know cons need to cover costs but if your paying in and you will have zero time to play anthing else then there needs to be no further entry fee and 50%+ of your con entrance needs to go to prize support.

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Wed Oct 22, 2014 10:45 pm
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Post Re: Tournament Attendance -discussion and gathering of ideas
Warpfodder wrote:
I will happily hand Barry over 35 sterling for one of his tourneys and book accomodation for 2 nights and use up annual leave to make sure i can go...cos they are fantasticlly run and theres good odds i can get scoops in with Matt Hamill and maybe Shane :) on the other end of the spectrum theres events at cons, we all know the type, that charge 35 euro in and your feel ripped off. I know cons need to cover costs but if your paying in and you will have zero time to play anthing else then there needs to be no further entry fee and 50%+ of your con entrance needs to go to prize support.


This is how I feel too. Barry has a rep of giving you good value for money. When I ran my tournament there were SO many moments I thought to myself, what would Barry do? (WWBD™) It should be the bar.
And I agree on cons. I go, pay through the nose frankly, and I feel the value for money is crap. They are technically tournies but to me some of them are such non events that my brain hardly counts them as a thing. I just wanna scream at them that you're charging me full price when you know I wont be able to get any value out of this because I'm clearly going to be playing a game from 9 to 5 in a room. Again, to me, unless everyone is going and I'm there to spend time mostly with them (like every warpcon I've been to) then my brain wont register cons as a thing, because the value for money stinks.

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Wed Oct 22, 2014 11:02 pm
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Post Re: Tournament Attendance -discussion and gathering of ideas
Quote:
I wouldn't say there are to many events, but planning between TO's could be a lot better, 3 or 4 events within space of few weeks? What did you think would happen

As for comp, to me personally and for most others I don't think comp makes that much difference. To be honest changes in comp keep game fresh for me, whether it's straight out of box, etc, Swedish or scale. It's makes for more creative lists, if they were all etc hammer it would bore me to tears. Even the variation in soft scores makes it more interesting, prior to last NWG I was cursing Nigel for the amount of time I was spending painting but after I got it done I was loving it (even to extent of already planning for next years NWG).


Mr Rake is on to something here I think :D

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Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:11 am
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Post Re: Tournament Attendance -discussion and gathering of ideas
Mo in the UK has an annual calendar showing all tournaments for the year.

Mo's hard work

Wouldn't be a bad idea to recreate this type of sticky thread, only for Ireland events.

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Sorry, I meant... l will take a stab at creating this post, though I do not know when y'all will run events.

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Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:27 am
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Post Re: Tournament Attendance -discussion and gathering of ideas
PhillyChris wrote:
Mo in the UK has an annual calendar showing all tournaments for the year.

Mo's hard work

Wouldn't be a bad idea to recreate this type of sticky thread, only for Ireland events.

Quote:
I will take the ring to Mordor, though I do not know the way.


Sorry, I meant... l will take a stab at creating this post, though I do not know when y'all will run events.


That sounds like a plan - it would certainly help TO's schedule the dates a little better to avoid the current scenario of almost weekly tournaments!
lenny1977 wrote:
Quote:
I wouldn't say there are to many events, but planning between TO's could be a lot better, 3 or 4 events within space of few weeks? What did you think would happen

As for comp, to me personally and for most others I don't think comp makes that much difference. To be honest changes in comp keep game fresh for me, whether it's straight out of box, etc, Swedish or scale. It's makes for more creative lists, if they were all etc hammer it would bore me to tears. Even the variation in soft scores makes it more interesting, prior to last NWG I was cursing Nigel for the amount of time I was spending painting but after I got it done I was loving it (even to extent of already planning for next years NWG).


Mr Rake is on to something here I think :D



Agreed - Variety's the very spice of life - We are lucky to have so many events - if we could justschedule better and work out a formula for convincing warhammer players who dont play tournament (in reality the majority of people invested in the hobby)...


Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:34 am
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Post Re: Tournament Attendance -discussion and gathering of ideas
was in the process of something like this, it would be good to have an account of annual events and then a couple of big tournaments advertised internationally


Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:55 am
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Post Re: Tournament Attendance -discussion and gathering of ideas
PhillyChris wrote:
Wouldn't be a bad idea to recreate this type of sticky thread, only for Ireland events.


Well there is the Diary Digest but it hasn't been updated with the latest stuff...

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=961

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Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:56 am
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Post Re: Tournament Attendance -discussion and gathering of ideas
Could you maybe have this done so that the top of the list is the current years tournaments? is there a process where the moderator of this gets thi populated because i cant imaginegoing around and asking everyone for their tournaments individually.


Thu Oct 23, 2014 11:27 am
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Post Re: Tournament Attendance -discussion and gathering of ideas
lenny1977 wrote:
PhillyChris wrote:
Wouldn't be a bad idea to recreate this type of sticky thread, only for Ireland events.


Well there is the Diary Digest but it hasn't been updated with the latest stuff...

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=961



Nice spot Lenny. Looks all we need is a little house-cleaning then. Perhaps I can convince Nigel to reformat the post so most recent events appear at the top of the thread :D

I noticed there were some tournament references which never actually happened (i.e. Knocktoberfest).

Is it the T.O.'s responsibility to cancel/delete threads of cancelled events, and to notify Nigel to delete them from the Diary Digest thread?

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Thu Oct 23, 2014 11:34 am
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Post Re: Tournament Attendance -discussion and gathering of ideas
Yeah updating would be good!
I think the format is ok but it can always be looked at with Nigel :)

Quote:
Is it the T.O.'s responsibility to cancel/delete threads of cancelled events, and to notify Nigel to delete them from the Diary Digest thread?


As for the tournaments, I think if an event is going to be created/moved/changed/cancelled, the mod/owner of the site should be told via PM or mail so they can
perhaps let people know and also edit the diary too.

I'll be arranging our January tournament (Winter Assault) over the next couple of weeks and will mail the mods to change the diary when I have put a post on
w-ired.

Also, a little off topic but anyway, delighted to see you doing the Irish Masters Chris! If I can help you out, please let me know! :D

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Thu Oct 23, 2014 12:05 pm
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Post Re: Tournament Attendance -discussion and gathering of ideas
PhillyChris wrote:
lenny1977 wrote:
PhillyChris wrote:
Wouldn't be a bad idea to recreate this type of sticky thread, only for Ireland events.


Well there is the Diary Digest but it hasn't been updated with the latest stuff...

http://w-ired.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=961



Nice spot Lenny. Looks all we need is a little house-cleaning then. Perhaps I can convince Nigel to reformat the post so most recent events appear at the top of the thread :D

I noticed there were some tournament references which never actually happened (i.e. Knocktoberfest).

Is it the T.O.'s responsibility to cancel/delete threads of cancelled events, and to notify Nigel to delete them from the Diary Digest thread?


Definitely a little house-cleaning needed!

:oops:

Original idea was to take the posts, and compile them from the T&E subforum. It's been farmed out to guys to help me with this, but it was never really satisfactory in truth. It could use someone to take a little ownership of this.

I think you may need to expect an e-mail Chris...

:lol:

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Thu Oct 23, 2014 12:23 pm
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Post Re: Tournament Attendance -discussion and gathering of ideas
A Calender is a good, but as I mentioned early, my concern would be weighting. You can see a tourney penciled in for last week of a month, but it could be a non event for most as not all tournies are created equal.

If a month had 4 barebonesish tournies (common in Ireland), I would be sad if this stopped say, Barry running a tournament the same month. Because one of those is worth 10 barebones.

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Thu Oct 23, 2014 12:31 pm
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Post Re: Tournament Attendance -discussion and gathering of ideas
Gojira wrote:
A Calender is a good, but as I mentioned early, my concern would be weighting. You can see a tourney penciled in for last week of a month, but it could be a non event for most as not all tournies are created equal.

If a month had 4 barebonesish tournies (common in Ireland), I would be sad if this stopped say, Barry running a tournament the same month. Because one of those is worth 10 barebones.


We'll update the sheet for starters and adjust the formatting.

If you're planning to take time off for a tourny, and there are 1+ tournies, I'd strongly advise to follow these steps:

1) Consult your calendar
2) Decide which weekends you're free
3) Consult the Tourney Calendar
4) Decide on which tournies are in question
5) Post on the tournament forum posting with your queries
6) or, if you want to remain anonymous, PM the T.O. who is most-likely the original poster of the tourney in question.
7) Decide which tourney to sign-up

In any case I'll tread lightly with weightings at first, i.e. not include them... everybody "weights" their decisions on different things - one person may want great food, others may not want to play certain comps. In any case, look at the posts or simply inquire & decide.

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Thu Oct 23, 2014 3:01 pm
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Post Re: Tournament Attendance -discussion and gathering of ideas
All good ideas lads, glad this is being taken on and progressed

As an aside I think TO's need to have a think about sustainable numbers, by that I mean tournament saturation not just in terms of to many in same time frame but throughout the year.

Can the player base of regulars plus new guys and casuals sustain more than 6 tourneys a year? Or 8 a year or 10 and so on. We need to consider the demand, availability, comp and location. These need to be worked on together to avoid clashes like we have just seen.

Just a few thoughts


Thu Oct 23, 2014 3:26 pm
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